#54 Anniversary Edition: Distributors: Making Sales With Margin.

If you currently use, or are considering using a distributor to distribute your products to a retailer, have you accounted for the margin to pay yourself as well?

Using a distributor can help increase your stockists but it is another expense that needs to be accounted for when pricing your product 💸, which is why pricing correctly for distribution is so important.

In this episode I talk with Hayssam Bejjani, The Chief at Cartel & Co, a boutique food and beverage brand partnership and distribution company,  about distribution best practises for packaged food and drink brand owners when engaging and working with a distribution partner.

In this episode you’ll discover:
🚚 A strategic approach to landing more wholesale accounts.
🚚 Different ways of working with distributors (including my fav, the ‘Hybrid model’).
🚚 Whether working with a distributor or going direct might work best for your business.

And most importantly…….

🚚 Managing margins so everyone (yep, including YOU!) makes enough 💰.

PLUS, as an added bonus to celebrate the podcast’s Anniversary month, I’ve updated this episode to include my expert tip on how to better manage your customers when you’re not getting reports or insights from your distributors.

LINKS & RESOURCES

• Waitlist for Foodpreneurs Formula Coaching Program
• Cartel & Co website
• Cartel & Co Instagram
• Cartel & Co Facebook
• Cristiana and Co
• On the Grocery Shelf and Failed. Twice. What To Do.

If you haven’t listened to episode 53 (53 mins), ‘Straight Talk from a Specialty Retail Buyer. What to Say in your Pitch’. listen here.

Season 17 with NFTC

Season 17, out now, is brought to you by NFTC – The Natural Foods Trading Company.

If you're a growing food brand navigating that tricky middle phase—scaling up, maybe landing your first major retailer, figuring out how to buy smarter—NFTC is worth knowing about.

They're a mid-tier ingredient supplier specialising in natural wholefoods: nuts, dried fruits, herbs, spices, seeds, and more. Small enough to offer lower minimums and genuine flexibility, but backed by serious sourcing capability and a team that actually knows its range inside out.

Think of them as the ingredient partner that grows with you—not one you'll outgrow.

Check them out at nftc.com.au

Transcript

Hey, one year ago I launched the Foodpreneur podcast because I saw the need from packaged food and drink brand owners for deeply experienced tactical help to scale their business. I coach and consult foodpreneurs from around the globe everyday helping you land more accounts, get more product into more consumers’ hands and put more money in your pocket for every food and drink product you sell. If you’re a regular listener you’ll know that we’re celebrating the first anniversary of the Foodpreneur podcast this month and since launching one year ago we’ve had almost 10,000 downloads. As part of the anniversary celebrations, we’re replaying reengineered versions of your favourite four episodes each week of February. Two weeks ago celebrations kicked off with THE most downloaded episode ever, ‘Why Foodpreneurs Don’t Make Money’ and last week we broadcasted my chat with retail buyer and owner operator of five specialty grocery stores, Panetta Mercato, Christina Basile. Today is another rocking episode that is in our top four of all time, my chat about distributors and their margins with Hayssam Bejjani the "Chief" at Cartel & Co, a boutique food & beverage brand partnership and distribution company. This episode first aired at the beginning of June 2022 and it immediately became an audience favourite. I asked Hayssam to chat with me because I know distributors, generally speaking, can be a real nightmare to deal with. They are box movers and the mistake most foodpreneurs make is thinking that once they’ve secured a distributor partner, that their sales dreams have come true. Wrong. That’s not what happens or what distributors do. Distributors are your logistics partners not your sales partners. Distributors don’t sell, at best they take orders. Also, distributors need to account for their own margin, understandably, so for you, remember to listen into my chat with Hayssam on how to account for their margins as well as your own. Also, Hayssam and I did a pricing for distribution masterclass last year because I know this is a BIG issue for foodpreneurs. We reference it in the episode but that masterclass is no longer available. It was recorded and was available until the end of 2022 and proved exceptionally popular, but it’s now gone. If you subscribe to this podcast on your player of choice, or subscribe to Femalesinfood.com you’ll be notified for when I host another masterclass or get on the waitlist for Foodpreneurs Formula, my coaching program  where I’ll teach you how to manage your margins and price for profit. The other point you must know is that it is a challenge to work with distributors. Most do not take a partnership approach so when needing data to manage your business, such as sales reports or customer account lists, you will rarely get those. My expert tip on how to better manage your customers in lieu of not getting reports from your distributor is to go on the road with them and sell your product, in tandem, with them. Yes this is time consuming but this is the best way to know who is interested in your product and gives you a chance to be at the coal face of the selling of your product. It’s manual work but it will pay dividends ultimately. And sure it’s not a long-term, foolproof, way of managing your sales data, I know that, but it’s a strop-gap measure that will ultimately prove helpful in multiple ways. Lastly, distributors will make you money if you’re a higher volume lower margin product rather than a high margin low volume brand. The only way to overcome this is to work with specialty distributors in your niche, for example if you’re a speciality confectionary or chocolate brand, engage with a distributor who specialises in that category otherwise you’ll get lost amongst mainstream brands and ultimately the distributor will delist you. In fact you’re unlikely to get listed by them in the first place and that’s why almost everything that I coach to is helping foodpreneurs deeply understand the niche and sub-sales channel that they play in because once you truly understand the nuances of your sub-sales channel such as cafes or speciality retail, you will be in alignment with channel partners such as distributors in that channel too and you’ll waste less resources trying to be all things to all people and in fact put more money in your pocket for every food and drink product you sell. So that’s my expert advice on how to work with distributors right now in these challenging economic times. I want to take a moment to thank you if you’re a regular listener, for your loyalty, it means a lot to me. I hope with the four anniversary episodes you’re going deeper with the content and taking your business awareness to the next level. And perhaps if you haven’t yet, you’ll rate and review Foodpreneur with Chelsea Ford on your podcast player of choice. And if you’re a new listener welcome, I’m thrilled that you’re here. The four first anniversary episodes are brought to you by The Foodpreneur Journey, my roadmap to help you scale and my coaching program, Foodpreneurs Formula, for brand owners wanting to land more accounts; get more product in more consumers’ hands; and put more money in their pocket for every food and drink product they sell. Find the links to both resources in the show notes. And just a request that if you find this episode helpful, please rate and review it, your reviews help me help more foodpreneurs scale and better understand what content resonates with you my wonderful audience. So, that’s it, see you in the episode.

Hey, Hayssam. Great to have you here on the podcast with me today.

Hey Chelsea, thank you so much for having me looking forward to chatting with you.

Yeah, I am really looking forward to chatting with you and also for our Distribution Workshop where we are diving deep on the numbers to help brand owners or food founders, uh, very soon. So, but we'll get to that later. So my, my first question really well, I should ask you Cartel & Co that's your business. What is Cartel & Co?

Um, well I suppose at a, at a basic level, we're a distribution business. Um, we work, we tend to, uh, work with a lot of smaller artisanal producers. Um, I personally started Cartel & Co because I was a brand owner looking for distributors and struggling with finding the right distribution partners and also really not understanding how to work with distributors really that well. So I started Cartel & Co to sort of meet a need for myself and it's been a, uh, a very intense learning journey. Um, but, but a great one. And so, um, we are, you know, what you would expect from a, a distribution partner and having said that we tend to focus a little bit on actually partnering with brands a little bit more than maybe your sort of general mainstream distributor.

Yeah. I mean, I think your brand is sexy if I may say so. Feels very, um, so the thing with, um, brand owners ands and, you know, I've managed distributors on many occasions, um, you know, it feels like distributors treat brand owners as if they're doing them a huge favor by stocking their product. So how do you get past that and ensure there's greater mutuality instead?

Hmm, that's a really good question.

I think that, um, I think that as a brand owner or a producer, the first question is really whether you need a distributor. Mm. And I don't think distributors distributors or, you know, going down the distribution path is the right answer for everyone. And I always like this sentence, which is begin with the end in mind and, you know, really understand what you're trying to achieve. Um, I really enjoyed listening to the podcast that you had with, uh, James, um, uh, the, the meat producer from, um, uhlin and Colins. Thank you. I knew it was an F uh, and I, you know, and I've met James before. I just had a mental blank and I, I love what they've done. Um, but you know, that's a great example where it made sense for him to go direct. And, and it's part of the challenge, I think, that he had with getting into independence of course, uh, because they are so disparate, they're hard to, they're hard to deal with.

Um, but you know, it's a great example of where distribution or working with an outsource distributor, wasn't the right model. Um, so first question is, what are you trying to achieve is, is the right channel for your brand, maybe through the majors rather than through independence. Um, understanding that independence do have a preference around, you know, supporting products that are not in the majors. So it's a bit of a balance you have to strike. Um, and then of course understanding the margins that distributors are gonna need and how you are gonna need to support them. Um, so, and I know we'll cover a bit more of that in the, in the masterclass around, you know, a lot of the, the margins and how you support, how you can support distributors. But I think that's an important question. And, and then I think a secondary question is also understanding that there are multiple channels you can work through going into independent retail and working with a distributor to achieve that is one of those.

Um, but before you get into that conversation, uh, are you, do you have a food service strategy? Mm-hmm <affirmative> do you have an export strategy? Do you have importantly, an online, you know, direct to consumer strategy? Um, so really understanding that working with a distributor, um, should be one of, at least three or four kind of legs on the stool that keep your business solid and diversified. Um, and, but I think, you know, there are different models of working with distributors and it's important to understand how to do that. I think most people don't realize that there are also hybrid models where you might work with a distributor, but compliment that with your own, uh, sales or, you know, supporting that distributor with your own presence. Mm-hmm <affirmative> we see that a lot with drinks brands where they might have, uh, a salesperson or a small team that's going out and building the brand and getting it into both, uh, cafes, food service, as well as retailers, and then working with the distributors to service those accounts. Yeah. Um, so that's an option. Um,

That's my preferred way. I'm, uh, working with a bakery at the moment, and there's a couple of things with regard to what you said with that hybrid model that I love and that I've advised them on. And that is to support the activity of the distributor. We, by running alongside them and having the conversation with the distributor about this is the strategy. This is the sales approach that I'm taking. These are the marketing promotion activations that I'm doing. What can you do with me? And what can we do separately or together, um, and having a plan and also, and we'll talk about this some more, but not abdicating the role of the selling specific exclusively to the distributor. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> that treat the distributor? The way I like to treat distributors is if they're their own sales channel for me so that I can, uh, be, I've got multiple irons in the fire in terms of building out my, my revenue and building my velocity. So, yeah. Yeah, that's definitely my preferred way because otherwise I think too many food founders make the classic mistake of abdicating or responsibility to the distributor. And then they're bit disappointed because it's nobody's job, we're all in sales, but as the brand owner, ultimately, it's your job to be doing it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's a great point, Chelsea and I, I think it's a funny relationship, the one with the distributor, because they're your customer, your distributor is your customer, but they're also your partner or they should be, mm, a good distributor. You know, I often say to our brand owners and our suppliers think of us as your SA, excuse me, as your sales team. And we really should be part of your sales and marketing strategy and where the, where the feed on the ground. Um, and so it's a, it's an interesting balance to find where you are, you are working with them as your customer and your job is to provide them with support and service and understand their needs and what they want to, to your, uh, question, how do you get around, uh, feeling like they're doing your favors <laugh>, um, and you know, um, but also how do you, how do you partner with them and how do you treat them as a, as a partner?

Um, and I think that what, what kind of distributor you work with really depends on what you're trying to achieve and, uh, what kind of product you have. Um, but really you wanna understand why does that distributor want your brand and, um, and how you are gonna get a distributor, uh, excited about what you are offering, um, is by being clear on how you are going to support them to distribute, you know, again, the right distributor, if you're looking for a partner, if you're not, if you're selling a commodity and you just want someone that's gonna buy volume and you only want hear from them when they send you a purchase order, that's a completely different proposition, but

Wholesaler really?

Yeah, exactly. That's a wholesaler. Exactly. And I think that when you say distributor, you're really inherently talking about someone that's gonna be a bit more engaged and that's an important, uh, that's an important distinction.

I wanna pick up on something that you've said to me before we recorded, which is around setting regular reviews every three to six months. Is that something that you do with your brand owners or is that something that they would drive with you?

Um, yeah, I think, you know, I'd love to do it in a more structured way and, um, we're where we are trying to work out as a business. You know, how we, how we implement more structure. Um, I love, I love structure. I think structure gives you the ability to, to grow and to be really clear on, you know, the expectations. Yes. Um, I think it depends on the stage of the brand. A lot of producers and suppliers we work with, I might talk to, you know, just every week or two or three, we just kind of jump on a phone call and, and chat through ideas and opportunities. And it's fairly fluid. I think that in the first, um, year of a brand launch, you might want to talk quarterly. I think once you've got a more established brand, it might be that it's a six monthly or even, uh, you know, we've got brands we've been working with for nine years and we chat once a year.

And if there's a need for a follow up chat, we do that. But otherwise, you know, we can always pick up the phone and have a chat. So, um, I do think though that this is part of the selection process. It's part of that sort of dating process that you wanna go through with a distributor first up, which is what are your expectations and what are, what are they comfortable with? Um, I think it's really important to understand that distributors often are smaller businesses and they're really busy. And maybe if you are wanting to, you know, have a conversation every two or three weeks or every month, that's, you're gonna get some resistance there. So really part of finding the right partner is being clear, how do they wanna work? And what are your expectations? But I think at the beginning, quarterly is a good one. Um,

And you'd review sales data in that. And perhaps what the plan is from promotions or your marketing activations for the, for the next quarter. I mean, that's the way I would like to do it. I think it would be incredibly satisfying if I was well, when, when I worked in food directly myself, I wanna know how sales tracked, what the trends are. What's not working, what's working really bloody well. And then what the plan is to make those sales, if not more for the next quarter, keeping in mind seasonality, um, and that could involve sales activations or could be marketing activations. And I think it's simply those sort of five, six things. Yeah. You stick to that. That's the system.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And the thing that I'll say, I mean, part of, part of selecting a great distribution partner is actually understanding what they're willing to share with you. Oh, that's good. Um, because you do need access to data to be able to make decisions. So, you know, one of the things we've always done is we automatically send our, our suppliers a, uh, a sales report that shows them every customer that's bought their product and what product, what skew they've bought over the last three months. And we do that quarterly.

Hold on. You actually tell them what customer bought.

Yeah. And I think that that's, well, no, that's a really, that's probably because as a brand owner, I often struggled. I felt like I was begging distributors to send me a list of where my product was being sold, but I just didn't understand how I could be an effective brand owner if I didn't know where my product was. So it was one of my frustrations. And, and I guess it's the first thing that I've done with Cartel & Co and I suppose I've always felt that Cartel & Co was created to serve brand owners first. And yes, of course, we have to do a great job and provide great service to our retailers, to our customers. But, um, I've really tried to think about what is a brand owner need from a distributor. So the first, so that's something, you know, access to data is really important.

And I think you, you, as a producer, you need to understand, um, that and how that works. The second thing is, and it's something that I often struggle with as a distributor. I'm representing brands across so many different categories, and I don't understand all those categories. So often, you know, you, you launch with a brand and you are learning on the fly. And I think that's part of the reason why regular reviews are useful. Um, it's great to launch and to, you know, when you launch your promotions should be fairly, um, simple. I mean, your focus is just get the product on the shelf. That's a really simple, uh, focus, and it can be backed up with really simple promotions to encourage the retailers to try the product. Um, but as you go through that process three months in six months in, you start to understand the category and you start to understand where the challenges are.

So what's really great for us is when we're working with a brand owner that, uh, is able to take those learnings, that we are communicating to them and work with us to find solutions and, you know, that are fluid and flexible enough. Um, and really, I guess, partnering with us to go, okay. Yep. That makes sense. How do we figure this out? Uh, rather than being very sort of rigid and stuck to, well, this is the promotion we planned on and that's all we're gonna do. Um, and I think part of it is that often we are dealing with brand owners or producers that are also new. So we're not, uh, for me personally, I'm rarely dealing with brands that have been in the market for 10 years where they really know their category. Well, yeah. Uh, we're often bringing new brands to market, so that's probably part of why our experience is a little bit different.

So I would like to ask you, do you, if you share sales data of where the product is sold, why don't you feel worried that the brand owner is gonna go direct and cut you out of the deal? Because that's the answer that I get from so many distributors, which a, I might sound like Pollyanna because I believe in partnerships. Yeah. And I don't do that stuff. Um, but then again, I've also been in the industry for three decades and I also know how old school that industry, the industry is, hence why there's hot young guns like you and I now doing different things. <laugh> yeah. But I say so myself and so most old school distributors would not say to the brand owner where their product is sold. So you told me that you do do that. So how you not worried that they're gonna undercut you or go leave you out of the equation?

Yeah. That's a really good question. I, I agree with you. I think the industry is reasonably archaic and oh, I feel, I feel like, I mean, it's, again, it's I started Cartel & Co cuz I was just frustrated with it, you know, and I don't think we do everything right. But I, but I think that the general intent has been let's just do it better. Um, and we don't get that right all the time, but you know, you learn, um, I think that maybe the, I don't know, but maybe the industry has been driven by, you know, I think for me a wholesaler is more interested in typically they're gonna run their own trucks, their own delivery vehicles and they're more interested in filling the truck. I know I could be wrong, but that's just how I perceive it. And so they will have typically a lot more products, a lot more skews that they distribute and they're trying to just, um, you know, just fill the truck with product.

They don't want to run an empty truck. Yeah. Um, and I suppose for us, I've sort of, I approached it a little bit differently, partly because we don't run our own trucks. We use, uh, logistics partners that, you know, outsource logistics partners. We have our own warehouse, but we don't do the deliveries. So for us, we are able to be more selective about the brands we represent. We don't have that many brands relative to what a typical wholesaler does, but we're also, we've always been very, uh, clear about requiring some kind of exclusive arrangement because for us to be able to be super open and sharing all that data, we've always requested that we have an exclusive distribution arrangement with the brands that we represent. Yeah. And of course exclusivity can be defined in different ways. And as we talked about earlier, there's different channels.

You know, we're very focused on retail, so you can be working with Cartel & Co exclusively, but you have another distributor getting your product into cafes or, or, you know, you, you've got, you're doing your own thing on direct to consumer online or whatever. Yes. But that's part of the deal with us and you know, um, not everyone is comfortable with that. And I, and I understand that, um, I think exclusivity comes with commitments on both sides. And of course we have commitments around, um, maintaining that exclusivity by performing. And I think that's part of it, you know, a lot of brands possibly don't select the right distribution partner slowly enough. And, and it's comes back to your original question. Maybe they're feeling desperate that once they've got a distributor they're, they're done, they've made it. And actually it's not great for your brand to change distributors.

It it's perceived not particularly positively by the industry. So it's something you wanna avoid. And that's why, um, I don't think that exclusivity is a dangerous thing, but I think again, you need to take your time and ask the right questions. And, um, and if you're going into an exclusive arrangement, be clear that there are some commitments on both sides and feel confident that that distributor or that partner is gonna actually achieve those. Um, and they have that intention. So there's definitely a lot around the engagement process. And I think that if producers understand that they've come to the conversation with a lot more, uh, preparedness and a lot more expectations of what they want from the distributor, but also what they're gonna have to come to the party with, because it really is, is a partnership. And, you know, once you've got a distributor and you're starting, that's actually when your work starts as a brand

Owner. Definitely. Yeah.

You know, and it's not, you haven't made it, then you've just got a pass to go to get in and actually roll your sleeves up and start working.

So it's the end of the beginning.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. And, and you touched on, and we're not gonna go deep in this conversation cuz we're going to do it on the Distribution Workshop. You talked about promotions and in our Distribution Workshop where we're going to teach brand owners about pricing and pricing for distribution, we will also talk about pricing promotions and sharing that value with distributors. But I did just wanna bring that back up that you did mention that cuz that is a key part of that say quarterly or annual review, um, process in looking forward and you and I are gonna talk about more about that. And for those of you listening, check the website for more information, um, on that hands on workshop that Hayssam and I are gonna be doing. But I do wanna wrap up this piece of the conversation Hayssam about cuz you so clearly articulate that brand owners need to come with to you with a strategy.

And what I love about what you're saying, cause it's totally music to my ears is the clarity required from them, which might mean slowing down a little bit and taking the time to decide, uh, if distribution is right for them and if it is right, what does an ideal distributor model look like for their brand? And is it the hybrid model or not, which we've already spoken about and what support will the brand owner give you as a distributor to make sure that there is that mutuality for success. And so I just kind of wanted to wrap up all that goodness that you gave because it's very much a strategic play and I'm thrilled to hear all that, cuz I'm such an advocate for this idea of strategy. I mean even today already in Foodpreneurs Formula® member community, one of my members who sells seasoning was talking about her vision and mission and how she's been pulled in all sorts of different places lately and saying yes to all these things and none of them are working out because she wasn't clear on her vision, mission and values actually.

So, um, huge, you know, and it's huge and it's, it's kind of, um, the starting point for me. And in fact it very much is in my program. It's one of the kind of precursor attributes. Um, I mean I help brands out with that if they need it, but I would've thought anybody that's worth their soul in business has their vision, mission and values written. Of course you rewrite it. I'm not, I'm not sort of having got my member because I love the fact that she's revisiting it. She realized that she wasn't clear on that. And so she was getting pulled in all these different directions. So again, that is part of the operational opening line. And I, I suspect if somebody, if a brand donor came to you and said, um, you know, I'd love to partner with Cartel & Co and part of my desirability as a brand is that this is my mission. This is the vision for the business in 12 to 72 months, blah, blah, blah. Like they're very clear the clearer they are, the, the more clear people are, I think the clearer they are of what they aren't and that's really helpful.

Totally, totally. And I think, you know, to, to your point, the thing that often I feel is missing it, I'm not a marketer, it's probably my weakness, but I've certainly, and I, and I employ great marketing minds because I really value that. But I certainly think that a lot of producers start off and they're passionate about the product they're making and they're fantastic at that. And they, there might be a really personal story there as to why they're doing that or where they got the recipe. But one of the challenges is understanding marketing. As, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we see ourselves as the sales team, if you like your sales team and part of your sales and marketing department, if you like. So for us, it's really helpful to understand what is the marketing strategy? What is the brand strategy, first of all, what is the brand about and how do you communicate that to the end consumer and, um, and your promotions strategy should float out of that. But we definitely, uh, I, I think that small producers could definitely spend a lot more time understanding their own values and uh, why they've started the business and then translating that into a really easy to communicate marketing and brand strategy. Um, and, and then from there, everything kind of just fits in around that.

Mm. Really helps with the pitch, doesn't it? Mm. The why yeah. Uh, beyond taste <laugh> yeah.

Yeah. Well, the thing is getting people to taste your product, you know, but, but you know, we've talked a little bit about the, the whole begin with the end in mind, and I think that, um, there's definitely value sometimes in starting slow. And I, I, I love brands that have started and have been, uh, out there doing markets, for example, farmer's markets and building, building the, the following for that brand and testing it. And I think that's really valuable. So as long as you've worked back and we, we go into that, I'm sure a lot more with the masterclass, but the margins are really important and making sure that you're not testing your brand at the wrong price, but if you have worked out the right margins that are gonna be required, not just for a distributor, but also for marketing, that that's expensive, that requires a budget. Uh, and then if you've gone out there and tested the product through markets or through online, um, that's fantastic. And that, and, and really one of your biggest challenges as a brand owner is understanding how you can get consumers to have tasted your product because they're the ones that are gonna come back and buy it again. So answering that question is really important.

So I've got a couple of questions with regards to that. One is, um, have you seen a brand in market and they may not be in your stable of brands, but just one that you really love what they're doing at the coal face with trying to get people to taste their product, or building up a following or momentum one that you really, really love. And it could be anywhere in the world. We've got audience from all over the world and we we've got Google.

Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, I think one of the brands that we work with and I'm a huge fan of is, uh, a brand called strange love. Oh yes. And they're a, they're a local producer of, uh, mixers and, you know, tonic quarters and sodas. Um, but I think that they're an easy example of how to do it. Well, they, first of all, have done reasonably well at getting their product into food service. So they supply a lot of bars and cafes and, and restaurants. And, you know, that's a great way of, um, of getting consumers to know your product, cuz they've tasted it already on. And you know, we, uh, we represent another brand called simple, which is also a drinks brand. And one of the beautiful things about simple is they've been in cafes for years and we've just started, uh, getting that product into the retail space.

And it's been a huge success for us because consumers have already tried that product over the years. You go into a cafe there's only one range of juice there for you, you know, so you try that. And what we found is that just really shorted that process, that volume, um, that we are seeing with that brand. So I think strange love have also got a really good online presence. And so, um, they make it really easy for consumers to get access to their product, order it online and try it. And so it's a combination of getting over that first risk or resistance point that the consumer's gonna have parting with their money, particularly on a premium product. Um, you know, supporting that with, I suppose, finding opportunities where that consumer could have tried the product elsewhere, such as in a bar or in a cafe. And then of course supporting it on the shelf with promotions to, to reduce the risk and the resistance factor.

Yeah, we did that in coffee when I was with Dowe Burtz, which at the time was owned by Sarah Lee, but we acted like a boutique business, even though it was part of a conglomerate. And I was on the side of the roastery and I was one of my most favorite jobs in big corporate. And, um, we were in food service first and I, it's interesting, you've used two beverage examples and now I'm using a third beverage example. Perhaps it is easier to do it with beverage than it is with a food item. Yeah. Although, you know, I'm currently in love with a, uh, Quebec wa brand called midday squares. And, uh, they're only in the, in north America I think at the moment, but you know, they, in their third year of business, they hit 10 million. I mean, it's unbelievable. Wow. There's a found about what are they, uh, chocolate pro um, functional chocolate.

So, you know, an 8 billion category and they come along in 2018. So late in the, late in the, in the, um, late in the piece and then absolutely nail it. Hershey tried to buy them. They say no to Hershey at the beginning of 2021 Hershey then hit them with a, um, legal suit over the color orange that they're using. So to keep that out of the courts, not that I'm an expert at this, but I believe they just changed the color because Hershey, all of a sudden decided that their orange was too much like theirs, right. Seemed like a bit of bad, bad, um, a case of, um, what is it, um, when somebody gets rejected? Yeah. Because midday school rejected them. <laugh> yes. Yeah. Yeah. And anyway, I think to the point in hand and why I wanna tell you and our listeners about it is because they had an online sampling, um, uh, tactic where people could ride in and get a piece of functional chocolate and it was trial. So they led, they led with trial and they still lead with it and, um, their, their worth millions

And, and, you know, that's a, that's a great example, you know, we're, we live in probably the easiest time to reach consumers directly. I mean, we've got social media and it goes back to having a marketing budget or at least a marketing plan. Um, drinks are an easy example. I think generally chocolate and confectionary is, um, at least chocolate is, um, potentially an easy example for sampling. Although I dunno, I dunno how you'd go. You know, you wouldn't have maybe a lot of food service options if you are chocolate or confectionary. No. Um, you know, and so drinks are easier because there's a, there's some really obvious other channels to work through, but certainly if you are a, um, and, and, and I suppose the other things is tastings and that goes back to what, you know, it's old, cool, right. But retailers love brands that are in the, in store doing tastings and activations.

And, you know, I think a lot of brand owners are really resistant to that and it's expensive and it's time consuming and yes, you know, often it's you doing it because you can't find anyone that's gonna represent your brand and be as passionate about it. Yes. You don't have to do that forever. But I think it's still really important. How do you get your product into a consumer's mouth if you come to me as a distributor and you're like, well, we are we've, we are committing to doing a tasting, you know, every, uh, week or twice a week for the first year, we are gonna be a lot more confident that at least there's the right support to back that brand up. Particularly if it's something that's maybe, uh, I think with snacks, uh, drinks, you can get away with possibly giving away stock. Somehow it's a simple, you know, it's maybe it's cheaper. I don't know. Uh, it's simpler. Whereas if you've got a product that requires people to really sort of open it and taste it, if it's a condiment or something like that, um, you have to be there and you have to talk to them.

Yeah. So no short part of absolutely. And I was speaking to a buyer of the independent chain. Uh, she owns seven stores recently, and for her, it is essential that they have to support them, their stores with tastings. There's two examples. I'd like to give about that two on alternate ways to do it before we take a break. And I tell people about our amazing workshop that we're going to do together. Love it. But, um, one is Christian and co who is a member of mine and she has gluten free, cheesy bread. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, that's inspired by her Brazilian heritage who, um, targets her consumers are actually children. Her customers are the parents and carers of those children. And one of the ways that she drives trial is through school canteens in the education channel, really. And I think that is brilliant. And I worked with her on a specific geo-specific marketing activation, knowing that she was being trialed at a particular grocer, a bigger one, and they were trialing her in nine stores and were specific about the geographic locations of those stores. So she worked with schools in her area surrounding those, uh, grocery store geographies mm-hmm <affirmative> and got the product, her Christian and co gluten-free, cheesy bread in the mouths of those kids that live around those stores. It was a real gorilla campaign coupled with letter box drop, uh, which her children, I think she paid them. So <laugh> paid them to help her, um, in

Cheesy bread.

Yeah. So I think that's one way and another way, which is, um, a consumer trade show. I don't think it's right for every brand. Mm you, I like the cake bacon sweet show or something like that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I know some brand owners freak out at the cost, but when you think about it, like let's just talk around numbers, including your own time. Let's say it costs five grand, just give or take, well, how long would it take you to, to get, um, you know, that can happen over one day or two days of a weekend. Yes. It's a lot of time. Yes. It might be a fair chunk of change for an early stage business owner, but it's a way to get in front of sort of, you know, tens of thousands of people that ordinarily you, if you were doing tastings in store, which I think are a great idea, but just by way of comparison, you know, you'd never get, it would take a whole year to get in front of tens of thousands of people doing tastings in store.

I think that's a really good point, Chelsea. And I think that, you know, we haven't had trade shows around for a couple of years now, but, and, and they are really expensive. And, and, and of course there's trade shows that are targeting retailers, uh, and then there's consumer shows good food and wine, you know, the gluten free show. Um, I think all of these are super important and I understand that they're very, very expensive. And I think five grand is probably conservative. Yes. Probably looking upwards of 10. It's figuring out when the right timing is for those. They, they're definitely part of the strategy. And it just depends on where, you know, maybe you need to have a hundred ideally retailers before you do one of these, because you need to send people somewhere, or maybe you need to have a really solid online platform where all these consumers can at least buy your product. Um, but definitely a really good, good idea.

Part of the mix.

Definitely. Definitely. Yeah.

Let me tell people about our workshop has

Great

Scaling a packaged product is very exciting but never not challenging - each stage of a foodpreneur's journey highlights a unique set of obstacles to deal with and overcome. I’ve coached 100’s of brand owners and I get to see behind the scenes of food and drink businesses everyday and in the middle of those challenges lies opportunity. If you’re unsure of what to do next, or facing challenges right now, my advice to you is, be savvy, determine your strategy, research your customers, know your numbers and set up systems. As you grow and either sell more and make more money, or don’t grow and in fact your sales stagnate, use my roadmap The Foodpreneur Journey, as your expert guide so you become informed about what the necessary steps you should be taking are. I designed this roadmap to help you know which direction to take so you feel less alone, more confident in your decisions and reduce any burn out - because I know that’s what many foodpreneurs experience when they don’t know what’s around the corner or what to say and do when approaching buyers, distributors and pricing their products. Click the link in the show notes to grab your copy, or visit femalesinfood.com. And just so you’re aware, The Foodpreneur Journey roadmap will only be available for a limited time, so find the link to download your copy today.

Okay. We're back. So Hayssam thank you so much for that first half so much, uh, incredible value so far would love to ask you now for a brand owner, how do they know that their brand is going to fit with the distributor's portfolio?

Hmm, I think that's a really, um, it's a bit of a personal question in the sense that each, you know, you really need as a brand owner to evaluate what is this distributor doing well understanding, which are the brands that are the best performing for that distributor, for example, is there's some amazing distributors out there. You know, I, I, I think that I'm often learning from my competitors and, and I think that, you know, the great thing with distribution for us is because we're often not overlapping on specific brands, they're my competitors, but they're also people that I'll talk to and maybe maybe check in with, and, you know, get ideas from because they're selling different brands, you know, but ultimately we're, we're competing for the same shelf space, but I think understanding what do they do? Well, there are some great companies out there that do drinks really well.

And, um, and I, and for us, that's a fairly new thing. We've developed a great drinks portfolio, but it's really only been in the last year or two. Um, there are some great distributors out there that do the health food space really well, and maybe they are in every possible health food store, but maybe not so much in the IGA space. So it depends on where you wanna be. What's your brand, what's your product most relevant for? Uh, I think you wanna understand that, um, and understand not just what are the brands that this particular distributor does well, but who are the customers that this particular distributor services best? Uh, we, for example, tend to cover the grocery space, you know, your independent IGAs, your grocers and your health food stores fairly well, but we are not necessarily always going into every single little Govier, uh, store in the suburbs. So we tend to go across, uh, retail more broadly, very well. And I think we tend to suit brands that, um, have a slightly more premium offering and that recognize that they're not going to necessarily work in every single IGA in every single little health food store. Um, and, and that's how we've built our portfolio. So, um, I think that's a really important piece just understanding how you're gonna fit in that portfolio. And then of course, that allows you to know how to engage with that distributor better. Once you go to launch

Mm-hmm <affirmative> and how can you find out what brands they do really well and what categories they play in and what sub channels is their expertise? How does a brand owner do that?

I think you just have to ask the questions, um, you know, um, you can certainly take a look at their portfolio. Um, and generally, I suppose if you see brands on their portfolio that, you know, and that you see everywhere, you, you've probably got a sense that they've done well at that. So it can just be really simple. Um, but I like to ask, I like to ask distributors, you know, what are your top five brands? What, what, you know, what do you look for in a brand? What do you, what do you do? Well, you know, what are your sales team, um, comfortable with? Um, and <affirmative>, and, uh, and that doesn't mean that if they're a great drinks distributor, your product should be a drink, but as long as you understand how your product is going to fit along with that.

Yeah. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's kind of nicheing, isn't, it really we're all in the game of being niche or niche.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and it could be that a distributor is really looking to grow their portfolio into a different direction. So you might be one of the first brands that they have in that new direction. That's not a bad thing. As long as you are comfortable that you are, you're gonna be able to work with them

In that area. And so for me, for that, it you've gotta be in it to win it. You've gotta be consistent. Cause I spoke to somebody actually the other day, uh, making, I made a sales call to somebody and I won't say the category and they, um, on behalf of a brand, I did this and the person said you've called at the right time. We are looking for exactly what you are offering. Yeah. And, you know, that's, that's why I say to my members to some degree sales and relationships is a numbers game.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's actually, it's interesting. I've noticed recently, for example, often my own selection process can be influenced by who's approaching me. Um, and you know, recently I've had three or four different producers contact me out of the blue that are all in the same category. Wow. And so I've sort of gone. Oh, okay. Well, we don't operate in that category at all, but there's something going on. So let's, let's now look at that a little bit more seriously. Um, so you know, you can influence a distributor sometimes by being there at the right time.

Yes, I bet. So, um, yeah, I think what's, I'd really love to ask you about then is launching a brand with the distributor. So there's, you we've been successful as the brand owner now where you've accepted us, how, what do we need, um, structurally or tactically to do to make this relationship set off on the right foot?

Hmm, definitely the most important time, isn't it? When you're launching and you, you wanna put your best foot forward as a, as a brand. And I think, um, the thing that I wanna say about that is that it takes time to build a brand. And one of the things you want to be mindful of as a brand owner is

How does your distributor launched a brand and what kind of timeframe do they like to work with? Um, I, I know for example, you know, the first three to six months of launching a brand is just very much about just getting it into as many stores as possible. But I also know that often year two is where you capture a lot of the really juicy opportunities because they just took, they take their time. A lot of retailers, a lot of groups, particularly, you know, groups of IGAs mm-hmm, <affirmative> may not jump onto this straight away. And then, you know, that you've, you've gotta talk to them about a brand maybe three or four times before they're willing to really seriously look at it, or maybe you've gotta match their own category, review timeline as well. So, um, it does take time to build something, but certainly in the first three to six months for us, w you know, um, we really like brand owners that take their time in training our sales team.

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think often, you know, that's a really interesting one, because again, you, the story and the product itself is part of it. But often where I find producers might lack a little bit is competitor analysis, understanding who are your competitors in that category? Bear in mind, we might not be particularly familiar with the, with the category and you as a brand owner need to be the product expert on your product, but also the category expert. And it's really useful when a brand owner comes to us and says, well, these are the other three or four brands that we think we're gonna be competing with. Here's where they're priced. Here's where our product is gonna be priced. Here's what we think some of the selling points are relative to those, because it just means that we are able to go out there and have a really meaningful professional conversation with the buyer and really sound like we know the category.

Um, otherwise we are going to learn that on the fly, as we're talking about that brand. And, and actually we might miss some opportunities, so understand great idea. And also, you know, that should be part of your pricing strategy and your promotion strategy is who are your competitors? Are you going to be 10% higher or are you gonna be 40% higher than your, your competitors, you know? Um, and why and why, and what's the value, you know? Um, and, you know, just because it's your grandmother's recipe, you know, the consumer isn't necessarily gonna look at that, right. And, uh, or even the buyer they're gonna look at, well, I have this it's selling, why am I gonna put another product for that price? Um, so definitely being able to answer those questions and being able to equip the sales team in objection, handling. And, um, and, and then I guess tying into that, your launch promotion, you want to go out with some kind of promotion that you're able to offer the buyer and often that's case deal, but we, you know, there's so many different kinds of promotions. So we can talk about that in a lot more detail, I think another time, but the, you know, being really clear on how you're going to get that product on the shelf and how you're gonna make it easier for the buyer to take it on.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Sorry. I cut you off. Were you gonna say something I'm so sorry.

No, no, no. I, I think that, I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot to that, but I think that definitely preparing, you know, the distributors sales team is a big part of it.

Ah, I couldn't agree more. I'm so excited to hear you talk about that. But another thing that I think is really great and you kind of alluded to it a couple of times in our conversation today is a phased approach to sales and selling and projecting demand. So both with, um, you know, phased approach to launching and engaging a distributor, we talked about it at the very beginning, but equally just now, when you talked about demand, you know, for instance, the example you gave was we might sell a brand owner into a retailer, but we may not get, um, we may not get volume until 24 months in. And so I think it's pertinent for a brand owner to be cognizant of the phasing in terms of the ramping up. Mm. Um, and then maybe even ultimately the dying off, depending on <laugh>, how else they're reinvesting in their, in the, in their business. But, um, again, to me, that's taking the time and being quite strategic at looking at your numbers and the marketplace.

Totally. But I also wanna add to that, Chelsea, I think this is where somebody that's tested their product and has a sense of, um, what the market's ready for is really valuable because when, when we get a product on, on shelves, we don't have 24 months to make it move. We have at best three to six months. Good. Right. And so you really wanna be going in as a brand owner. You don't, it's very hard to get a second chance. So this is why going in at the right price point with the right strategy. And, and this is the challenge is you wanna, once the product is on the shelf, you want it to move. Yeah. And so your marketing has to match with that. If you are waiting until you have 300 retailers before you start doing social media, and before you start promoting the product elsewhere, how are you going to drive sales to the retailers that have you at the beginning?

And I often like to measure our success as a distributor, by the number of retailers we bring on board, but I'm really clear to communicate with our brand owners with V volume, you know, uh, resales, these retailers reordering is actually your responsibility and what are you gonna do about marketing that? And so if we get the product into a hundred stores, but it just doesn't sell through that puts everyone in a really difficult place where you're really sort of calling on favors just about just to keep the product there. Mm. And of course, retailers have to have product that's selling. So mm-hmm, <affirmative>, timing's really important. Um, timing the launch, knowing that your product has a good chance of success because you've priced it. Right. And you understand the category well, and then combining that with a marketing strategy, and maybe initially that's where in-store tastings make sense, because, you know, as you pointed to earlier, they are more expensive and they're, they're hard work, but if you are only in 20 or 30 stores, maybe that's the most effective thing to do until you get broad enough distribution. So

It kickstarts momentum, I think, with the tastings.

Yeah. And you don't have to do tastings with every store. I think you can be strategic geographically around tastings.

Mm. Again, you can take a phased approach. And in the interest of time, I also do want to mention that for those of our listeners who wanna know more about category, I mean, Hayssam, and I could talk about that for days, but we just don't have the time in this session, but we did talk, I did talk about it with a founder of a dog food product called dog delicious, um, on episode 15 scaled to 500,000 in 24 months and ranged in more than 650 accounts that founder was called is called Ben Wyat. Uh, and he, and I talk about how, uh, small businesses and food founders, uh, who don't have access to scan data because they're not in the majors yet and, or can't afford it can leverage Intel around category, what it is and how to get category information. Um, so has thank you.

I let's, um, I wanna ask you, let's, let's move on to pricing. Now. We are going to give people some hands on help in our workshop, but to wet their whistle today, because it's such a big piece of the puzzle. Can we talk now about costings and the pricing model, uh, and brand owners so often not allowing for distributors margin, uh, and I know both you and I are passionate about pricing backwards, um, or starting at the end, you know, what, what actually does that mean? What do you mean by that when you say, start with the end in mind?

Yeah. Great. Uh, great question. Pricing's such an important piece. And of course, you know, we're all in it to make a buck, right? So, um, and I think that the idea of beginning with the end in mind goes beyond pricing itself. Of course, we're talking about what kind of business do you want to have and what are you trying to achieve personally? And, you know, you could go, you could zoom right out into very high level strategic questions there when it comes to pricing. Ideally, I guess you should be understanding the category and where you're going fit into that category and your whole brand and your whole product and your value proposition ideally is developed around the category and a gap in the category that your product should fit. And pricing is part of that. Um, your whole brand packaging brand value proposition ideally, is developed around the category you are in and where you're gonna play, but that's a whole other bigger conversation.

Um, and that's what I pay, you know, great packaging designers and, you know, people like that, very good money for <laugh>. Um, but, uh, but I, I don't understand it that well, but I've certainly come to understand how important it is when it comes to pricing you while you don't control as a brand owner, you can't control the retail price. That's, uh, sort of illegal, but you can, you've gotta be realistic about what the margins are that everyone wants. And so if you are working, so the ideal thing is that you're starting with a retail price. You want to see your product at, and you have some realistic, uh, calculations expectations of what each layer in that distribution chain requires. One of the mistakes, one of the, the basic mistakes I see is that people don't have a, uh, an allowance in their, you know, in their pricing for a distributor in the first place, or they didn't, and they've gone out there and they've been selling their product direct into, into retail, at a price.

And then they come to a distributor and they're like, oh, now we have to put our price up. Yes. Well, you know, that's something you really wanna avoid. And as a distributor, we don't love that because it makes it look like we've put the price up. Um, and so we've gotta be a little bit mindful of the optics around, around that transition. Um, that's interesting. Yeah. And, and it's an interesting one because often we're being asked to take over those existing accounts that producer might have gotten 20 or 30 retailers on board, and then realized I can't do this. I can't make the product and sell it. And then, you know, I, I love what James mentioned, uh, you know, with independence, they expect you to go in and take an order every single time. They're not going to email you an order automatically. Some of them are good at that, but very few. So often we talk to producers that realize, oh, I actually have to be there every single month to take an order or every, every two weeks or whatever. So, um, certainly starting with allowing for a distributor margin. Um, I think retailer margin is the second one I, I think is done badly. Producers will confuse, you know, this is a really simple one, but confusing markup and margin right. Is a really common one, and

I've got a simple video that explains it with a freebie. I'll put it in the show.

Oh, I love that. I love that. I, I think that we, we probably should have that on our website. Yes. Um, it's, it's just one of those things, you know, and, and, uh, it's a really common one. And so you always wanna work back and that's really what margin is about. So you, you decide on the ideal retail price that you want. You have to allow for a margin of somewhere between 33 and 40% for a retailer. Yeah. And that really depends on the category that you're playing in. Um, and, um, but if it's a, but if it's a, I suppose, a product that's gonna sell on the shelf in the aisle, rather than in the fridge, you really have to be allowing for 35 to 40%. And I think that that's often a, a shock for producers. Um, of course you have to allow for a distributor margin and that margin will change depending on what kind is it a distributor or is it a wholesaler?

Are they moving boxes or are they out there partnering with you and building your brand mm-hmm <affirmative> and, uh, and often, you know, people or producers might have an expectation of a certain margin, but that's just not what matches what their expectations are of the distributor. So, um, matching the margin that you're allowing for, with what you want the distributor to do is really important. And, and then of course, allowing for marketing, I mean, we've talked about it quite a bit, uh, today, and there's, there's a chunk of costs that you have to factor in whether it's free stock, whether it's, you know, promotional deals, um, social media tastings, trade shows, consumer shows, and, and that's gonna come outta somewhere. And of course, your first year or two as a brand owner, you know, it, you might not be making a lot of money, might not be making money at all. You know? So where is that gonna come from? How, because that's also when you need the most marketing impact. So yeah,

It's not easy. That time is not easy, is it? No,

No. And I think that's why beginning with the end and mind is important. Chelsea, it might not be, it might be that distribution distribution's about volume, but it's also a longer term game. And it might be that if you make the product yourself and you are happy to just make it and deal with a handful of, let's say groups that are gonna buy direct from you, um, that's enough because you love making the product and it's a lifestyle choice. So I think once you choose to go down the distribution distribution path, you're choosing a, a delayed gratification path and <laugh>, and you know, you're really working towards volume mm-hmm <affirmative> and otherwise there's just no point doing it.

Mm-hmm, <affirmative> delayed gratifications. So we all have to be adults. We can't be children about

This. <laugh> imagine that, imagine that

Bummer.

I know such a party poofer but yeah.

So, um, you know, in terms of a brand owner talking about margins with a distributor, then I know, you know, some of my Foodpreneurs Formula® members literally ask me, well, how will I know, and how do I talk about it with a distributor? I mean, there's, there's this perceived invisible barrier of them and us. And I guess it's goes back to my first question about some many brand owners, particularly ones who haven't come from the industry, which is most that I work with. Uh, they feel like, oh, they've got the be beggars bowl out. So, you know, my, my final question really to you is, you know, how do brand owners talk to you about margin?

I mean, I think that's a really simple conversation. I dunno, I don't know how to answer that, to be honest, I, I guess every distributor has their margin that they need mm-hmm <affirmative> because, you know, distributors have a bunch of costs to deal with as well. And, and so you have to manage that. Um, and I think you can certainly ask the distributor what margin they need and what their required margin is. And it might be that, you know, for a period of time, you are looking for some support on that. And some distributors might be open to that. Um, but I think that the really important piece here, and I don't mean to deflect it, but I think that it, you've gotta be clear on what margin you are willing to work with at the end of the day as a brand owner, because, you know, I've started four brands and it's something that I've always done where I've worked on really very, very little margin in the first couple of years, knowing that once we reached a certain volume, we would be able to recoup a lot of margin through cost efficiencies.

Yeah.

And so, um, my philosophy has always been to launch a brand as competitively as possible, even if that meant that I was making no real money in the first couple of years. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, and so again, having the right expectations around what it takes to get through a launch and what volume you need to achieve to be able to, to recoup some margin. Um, but I don't think it's a, I don't think it's a difficult conversation. I think, you know, you should just ask the distributor what they're looking for, understand what they're willing to support with, if at all, ultimately margin is secondary to, is this the right distributor for me?

Nice. So take, take the, take the sizzle out of the worry of that. Yeah. I think, I think the motivation for the fear is having egg on their face, that they don't know something, you know, when you feel that you don't know something about an industry. And so you think you're asking a dumb question, but in my books, well, most questions are not dumb and you just gotta back yourself, particularly for women, if I may, may, because it's what I do. You know, women don't want to necessarily stick their neck out a lot of the time, not all of the time, but a lot of the time for fear of retribution, you know, but I think it is a partnership approach really isn't it. And just asking the question that's, that's my answer.

Absolutely. And, you know, I relate to that. I mean, I, I came into this industry with absolutely no experience. I just honestly came in because I had a, a brand and was frustrated by it. So you just have to just be humble and ask the questions and really just seek to understand that distributor's business model. And I think most people are, you know, the great thing with our industry is that most people are great and most people are passionate about the industry and, you know, they might be busy and not great at getting back to you and all of that. That's all of the issues that small business struggles with, but most people are really approachable.

Yeah. I agree. That's a beautiful note to end on. So yeah. Hey some, where can people find out more about your business if they were wanting to find out about who you are and what you do and check you out?

Yeah, great. Well, we've got our website, which is cartelandco.com.au.And, um, people can choose to sign up for our newsletter. We send a newsletter out to our retailers. It's a trade, uh, newsletter every two weeks and otherwise Instagram and Facebook keeping in touch. And I'm always happy to, to hear from people. I, uh, still, we're still small enough that I get all of the website emails, leads coming through. So, uh, always happy to hear from people if there's questions that I can help with or if they have some feedback.

Thank you so much. First of all, thank you so much for your time today. It's been gold, uh, and delightful for me. Thank you so much. Thank second of all, all those, um, references that we made, um, in the conversation today will go in the show notes, including Cartel & Co website links, et cetera, to make it easy.

Yeah. Great.

Thirdly, um, if you do reach out to, Hasam make it worth his time, but do tell him that you heard him speak on this podcast. It's always great to know where people come from and close the loop. And finally, and super excitingly stay tuned to females in food, social, and, um, our EDMS as well, because I'm announcing now, uh, the hands on Pricing Workshop that Hayssam and I are doing to help brand owners with their pricing for distribution. And that's coming up really, really soon. And all the details will be in the show notes for this episode and also on, um, our socials and our website. So thank you very much.

Thank you so much, Chelsea. And, um, yeah, I'm, I'm really looking forward to the masterclass. Um, um, really love to hear from people in the meantime as to what they're interested in covering in that as well.

Yeah. That's a good idea. Thank you. Yeah,

Thank you.

Okay. That's it for today. Thanks for listening. I hope you found today's insights valuable and learned something that you will implement in your food and drink business right away. I'd like to ask you now to help me help more female foodpreneurs put more money in their pocket by giving me an honest rating, five stars would be lovely, but that's up to you. Write a review and subscribe to this podcast on your platform of choice. The more you tell me, what you like, and the more momentum builds for Foodpreneurs with Chelsea Ford, the easier it will be for me to help women with packaged food and drink brands have more choice on how they can invest in their business. Freedom to spend more time with their loved ones and joy as they help even more people on their food journey. So thank you for taking a moment to do that and see you next week for another episode of Foodpreneur with Chelsea Ford.